What kiev ukrainians think

I believe this guy really believe what he says

I thought this was very interesting. This comment to a post of mine elsewhere reflects much that I have seen from ‘kiev ukrainians’. This one is much nice than most, being without abuse and hysteria.

It sounds to me like a sad young person, hurt and depressed by it all and really bewildered at what to do about it and can only kind of ‘sullenly’ lash out with posts such as the one he made.

So I took the trouble to try spell it out for him. Which would be the last of dozens or maybe even hundreds of such attempts. I’ve thought this time to put it all here and then in future I can just link to this post and I won’t need to write it all out again.

Here it is, his post and then my reply:

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Doug Hiller

Doug’s Substack

It is sad that some people actually believe that the way to peace is to reward Putin’s Russia with a victory and possession of land that is not theirs, for starting a war that was not needed, killing thousands of civilians, destroying cities and committing horrendous war crimes in order to attempt to rebuild an empire of subjugation.

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My response:

abrogard...

I think you have it all wrong. I do believe you poorly understand things at the very least.

You only say one sentence but it is a long compound sentence that conflates a number of postulations under one head: 'way to peace'.

If the sentence were accurate as a whole it would indeed be somewhat sad. Though not the end of the world and not even significantly 'sad' in a world full of people with incredibly awful opinions: like those who believe the way to 'peace' is to murder 40,000 women and children in Gaza. And do it. Now that's 'sad'.

A thing about your sentence is that I think it can fairly be understood as really directed at myself: attributing this 'mini tirade' of accusations to me.

That's an ad hominem in the first place and therefore abhorrent but it is also inaccurate.

Let's take a minute out and take this ad hominem tirade at face value and inspect it clause by clause and from the point of view of how does it match my beliefs, advocacies, desires...

Start with the main clause: 'sad some people believe' We have no evidence anyone believes any of this and certainly none that I believe any of it.

and then the subordinate clauses where the venom is:

'the way to peace is...' blah, blah, blah - about eight subordinate clauses I think follow it. This states 'the way to peace', not 'a way to peace' and as such we can see it is plainly ludicrous. To imagine anyone anywhere would maintain that list represent 'the' way to peace in any situation at all is laughable.

But, of course, we must acknowledge that it is never meant as an objective reality, a description of a real truth, but is more in the nature of a subjective polemic intended to sneer and mock. It uses the 'straw man' ploy in effect: lists these ridiculous things in such context and then sneers at the listing that it itself put up.

We will carry on:

'reward with a victory' In fact resolving conflicts with awarding victories is always the way, either under coercion or without. Diplomacy is all about finding a way to do it without coercion (unless you are american or kiev ukrainian, in which case coercion is all you know). That is what 'win win' situations are about. They are what diplomats and 'peace brokers' try to find all the time.

'possession of land that is not theirs'. I like this for it plays into a field that I care about. Just whose land is it? Does it belong to some fictional entity called 'A State' ?

Then what is 'A State' ? It is the people. No people: no State. Not the other way round: No State does not mean 'no people', see Palestine for instance.

The land belongs to the people. To which people? To the people who live there and work there, who built their homes and businesses and farms there, who bought and sold property there, invested their lives in it.

Who are they? They are the Donbas Ukrainians.

And what's happening to them? The Kiev Ukrainains invaded them in 2014 with vicious ethnic cleansing the declared intent and are still there, years later, invading and occupying, stealing and destroying.

'war not needed..' For eight years the Donbas people called for help. For eight years they were shelled by the Kiev Ukrainians, the american puppets, in order to enrich the usa and uk and 'destabilise' Russia. In '22 the Kiev puppets amassed on the Donbas borders ready to make a final push and conquer all of Donbas.

Since '45 the declared intent of us and usa has been to kill Russia. The usa demands peace on its borders, no threatening nations, no harbouring of the weapons of threatening nations. When this seemed to be happening in Cuba america was ready to go to nuclear war.

When this was the declared intent of Kiev Ukraine, to bring american troops and weapons to the border of Russia you claim they do not have the instincts and the needs and the rights of the americans? I well believe you would. For ridiculous double standards are the bread a butter of Kiev Ukrainians.

Kiev Ukraine declared its intent to give the port of Serverapol to that sleazebag the uk. Russia's main warm water port. Russia's tradition home port. And you suggest this doesn't mean a call to arms?

Ask your american masters how they would respond to losing Guantanamo Bay, or Diego Garcia or Yokosuka. Try that on for size? Another immediate call for your double standards.

'not needed' Another good one. The maidan, the invasion of Donbas. 'Needed' ? For what? For direct plain clear simple flouting of the Ukrainian Constitution which guarantees minority rights etc.

Just as with the constant never ending whining about 'join nato' the bunch of overpaid underworked unelected lying monstrous egomaniacs ripping off europeans under guise of protecting them from a non existent threat. What is 'joining nato' ?

It is flouting of the Ukrainian Constitution which demands neutrality from Kiev.

Yes indeed. The only necessity for kiev's aggression is the need to maximise profits for the american war machine and attempt to cripple Russia.

No thousands of civilians have been killed by either side except the thousands that are killed in Gaza by the americans, your lovely allies. And such civilians that have been killed have most deliberately been killed by kiev's eight year shelling of the Donbas, Donetsk.

No horrendous war crimes except those by the kiev regime starting with the maidan and then the Trades Hall and then the shelling of Donbas civilians and then the Bucha false flag and so on.

subjugation. Only america and kiev seek to subjugate. Plain simple fact. Just look at the facts, at the situation. Who makes the laws of subjugation? Who bans languages and cultures? Who has invaded another's land?

In all of this - I've said it a million times - one supreme thing, perhaps two, stand out starkly and clearly:

1. Never in three years of reading watching kiev ukrainian polemic have i ever heard a word of concern or sympathy for the supposed plight of their Donbas brethren.

At the same time as insisting there's a vicious terrible invasion by monstrous evil Russians all through the Donbas they never for a minute express the least concern for those who therefore must be suffering from this terrible invasion.

Never. Never. Which makes it clear and obvious and has done for three years that as far as the kiev (american puppet) ukrainians are concerned there are no 'donbas Ukainains'. There are none. Everyone there is assumed to be Russian and a target for unbridled hatred. Everyone and everything.

Which is ironic. Because it illustrates the whole point: kiev ukraine is attempting an ethnic cleansing of one quarter of its own population.

And maybe:

2. There also has never been a declaration of what the average kiev ukrainian is ever going to get out of this. Never. For there is nothing for them to get. If they don't get killed or crippled and by some miracle they managed to complete their invasion of Donbas what would they get? Those people? What all soldiers get after a war: demobbed back into civilian life. Without a job. With, in this case, fond memories of having invaded his brother's land and taken all he has and probably killed him, too, after the usual slavic tortures. Unemployed, ridden by grotesque nightmare memories in a landscape of ruin, in a nation sold lock stock and barrel to the westerners, owned by foreign multinationals and oligarchs, with national debts big enough to keep the whole nation indebted for generations, with corrupt thieves now more firmly esconced in government than every before and with america and uk's grip on the throat of their nation more tight than ever.

That's what they have to look forward to. That the 'future plan' for them.

What the world needs, what the Slavs need, is for kiev ukrainians to wake up and start to act in their own self interest, to protect themselves and their brothers, to identify the real enemy: usa and uk and thieves, oligarchs, criminals, and fight back.

I'm done.
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That was it. I’ll append to it that I wish him well. I wish all Ukrainians well. Is the point.